So whats kicking around in my head today. I've been chatting to a well known S scale modeler (who is welcome to come out of the woodwork if he can come up with a 1/2 way decent nickname for himself) and its got me thinking off on some tangents. Currently the UK market supports quite a bit of short run modeling, ranging from kits of obscure prototypes right up to RTR models commissioned by model shops, made by one of the big manufacturers. The US market has been catered to by Japanese/Korean brass model makers for 60 odd years now. Even the Australian market has RTR models available off the shelf, and now short run RTR made in China. So, why has this never taken off in this country. There were the Clerestory F guards van and Ka from Korea, which quite honestly were a slightly odd selection of prototype (possibly a normal 30' van and maybe an Ab might have made more sense) but this was 20 years ago, and the experiment was never repeated. There is normally the option to by locos made by the manufacturers but this can be very hit and miss depending on who is assembling them, and also quite expensive on top of an already expensive loco kit. The only RTR models that are currently available are the Frateschi line, and these are made overseas, Ho scale and 'look alike' models, though they are managing to keep up with the colour schemes.
So, why has New Zealand not been able to support an RTR line? you can point out that there are not that many modelers in this country, but we are comparable in size to the larger Australian markets (NSW and Vic/SA), and much larger that various English groups that follow obscure prototypes. Maybe its because we don't have a collector modeler, or its the lower levels of disposable income?
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19 comments:
Just a thought - I wonder the differing proportions of the various countries/states where people models overseas railways - To me, it looks like most UKites model UK railways, US model US railways (check out some of their blogs some of both camps seem to remarkably ignorant of other countries) and Australia I don't know.
I wonder about the lot of the Danes or Norwegians or the Thais and what their supply is like
The general consensus among NZ manufacturers is that NZ modellers are not prepared to reach into their pockets for what it costs to make the models to the standard that said modellers are demanding. I have put forth estimates for highly detailed one-piece RP NZ120 loco shells which I thought were reasonable ($85-$100), and was ignored, while several modellers warbled on about cheapy mods to US N-scale locos, so I guess we are likely to be stuck with heavy, poorly detailed cast whitemetal kits that were created donkeys years ago, for some time to come.
with big interest in whots out there and a number of peaple asking for parts for $$$ and being toled sory its just for me I think this shold be adressed first, the quolity parts are out there but for who??????.
woodworks, if you can produce a one piece RP NZ120 DFT or DXT shell for NZ $100 I am in - that is the first time that I've heard about this - that is a very reasonable and fair price for a nice and crisp shell - where can I order them ?
manaia, are you talking about the DX truck sideframes ?
cheers...
steve w.
'nomme'
Agree with Steve W. I would willingly stump up the $85-$100 for a detailed RP shell, although I'd prefer a DX. I don't recall this being raised previously Paul, only the LA that you were proposing. Is that still on the cards?
On the wider issue of RTR, it seems to get shot down in flames every time it is mentioned, either because there is a perception that there is no market, or because those that are in it prefer to scatch build. Was the case here only a week or two ago. If we are so tight, why do so many of us spend big bucks on foreign-prototype models (myself included)?
While it obviously requires a manufacturer to take a punt (risk?), I believe that a short-run RTR loco and a two or three freight cars (say DC, UK, LC & KP)
would transform NZ120 and the wider NZ-prototype hobby. NZ120 would attract modellers from the other NZ scales and those of other prototypes (e.g. US N & HO, British N & OO) if that were to happen. It would just make life easier.
I was actually thinking a De shell might be a good starter.... ;^) But seriously, I would do a Da/Dc before I looked at anything else. I am reluctant to model something that is already produced by Trackgang Products when there are other holes in the market needing to be filled. Da/Dc makes perfect sense because it looks like Mr Wells' etches are not being produced anymore, and a reasonable chassis is available in the form of the Yankee SD-7/9. The tricky part is that I would really need deposits from everyone in order to get started, and I would need to sell a minimum of six units, which is one shot on the RP machine.
Regards, Paul Woods
aka Woodsworks Scale Stripwood Supplies www.woodsworks.co.nz
Da/Dc ? don't need any at the moment (I am after a nice and crisp DF and DX) but just to keep the idea of a first RP shell running I am in for one Dc. how much downpayment do you need ?
cheers...
steve w.
'sumpe'
I am Anonymous #2 - just couldn't remember those login details late last night!
I am willing to commit to two of either the Da or Dc for starters. Would probably buy more in the future also. A deposit is no problem.
Maybe we should shift this conversation on NZ120.org?
Cheers
Doug
One of the problems that manufacturers have is that supply and demand don't always coincide.
From personal experience, the cost of developing and manufacturing and advertising products doesn't always get covered by sales for various reasons, in the short term (which I believe is where most manufacturers doing there costings).
Manufacturers take a certain amount of financial risk everytime they produce a new model.
Most manufacturers will shy away from pre-selling or asking for a deposit on a new product for obvious reasons.
RTR's are so labour intensive (talking RTR from kits) that costs are differcult to cover, as prices become higher than the average modeller wants to pay.
Perhaps Pat Eade had the right idea. Supply a limited run...
but once again its a financial risk, as the producer of the RTR wants their payment before the product is onsold to the market.
I would suggest that unless a manufacturer is prepared to do a run of RTRs that will supply the market for a long period, and not be looking to recoup their costs straight away, then we are stuck with cottage industry RTR's built to order.
With RP manufacturing it is easy to run a batch of shells that might be a mixture of Da's and Dc's, the software is very flexible and allows any combination of parts to be built so long as everything fits within the overall build envelope.
I do not intend to produce RTR locos, but I think a one-piece shell would go a long way towards levering more people out of armchairs and into the modelling room/shed/garage/shelf. I'm sure that most people are capable of gluing a horn on and bending some brass wire into handraily-type shapes.
Paul.
Well its Monday actually up here in the far north, & I have dwelled on the combined wisdom reflected in the original post, plus the comments from the various commentators.
I wish I knew the answer to why Kiwis don't seem willing to pay a fair price for a quality NZR loco RTR model, in any scale, especially as they are happy to fork out dosh for expensive "foreign RTR" models, golf clubs, shot-guns, digital cameras, wine, video games etc etc in their other walks of life. My forays in producing loco kits in a larger scale have been singularly unrewarded with orders from NZ modellers, in fact, sales to overseas modellers far exceed the response from the natives - this from a scale that was "crying out" for kit sets for small diesel locomotives - adverts, websites, pictures of pilot models have failed to elicit any real interest, to the result that I am seriously considering divesting myself of that investment in six models, given I can find someone to reimburse me the cost of the CAD work, plus assorted etches, power units, fitting masters, boxes etc.
The good news for struggling TTn3.5 scale modellers of an NZR persuasion is that these seemingly ill fated models will, in the fullness of time, resurface as NZ120 etches - as noted, the Drewry Ds, BTH Dsc, GE Dh & Hitachi Tr pilot etches are all either to hand for assessement or expected to arrive shortly - those of you who were at Convention &/or are logged into the NZ120 site can view pix of several of these trial etches.
The search continues for suitable power units for these particular locos, with a couple of feasible options already pretty much sorted, & enquiries into some options for others - as with all of us the major issue is spare time to devote to what is after all a hobby, & not a business.
So offers to assist, a la what the UK 2mm & N gauge societies members do, or some other special interest model groups seem to be able to effect, would be much appreciated, to see these locos available.
RTR is not a dead duck, but very much will depend on any level of support from modellers - surveys of what people want usually wind up with 1000 different wants, with every modeller seemingly having their own pet need, and thus no desire to support production of another model if its not one they want - in the offshore markets, such surveys at least seem to draw enough support for people to progress certain models, which modellers then actually pony up and support.
The cash flow roll on from one succesful venture then allows the developer to invest in another, which if supported by sales, then leads to another & so on - this is the part of the equation which we seem to fall short on - the other aspect which causes developers to cease & desist is the often vitriolic negative comments about a particular model which someone else's time & money & sweat has been invested in, to be "rubbished" because it is .00001 of a mm too short, or is not an exact replica of the 1903 original per plan #5503 - a model is a representation of a 1:1 scale original for heaven sakes, & in the 1:1 scale world the railway guys got up to all sorts of non-original, non-scale mods to the as originally drawn spec - other world country modellers, although not "happy" with too large drivers, or "wrong" tenders still pony up and buy stuff, so allowing for that further investment in something new/better.
Lets lodge a challenge to the group to organise an RTR NZR diesel loco and wagons set, with some PECO code 80 rails a few Preiser figures, a NZ controller and a laser cut NZR station /good shed for the 2010 Xmas market to get more people into the hobby.
I am happy to contribute a small loco ( quality etched body on a suitable proprietary mechanism) to such a combined project, funds from the proceeds of the set sales to go into a pool to pay NZ120 modellers to develop more J-5, IA etc wagons etc.
The RTR set is a great idea and would grow the hobby. Maybe the Preiser figures and station/goods shed could be available separately to keep the cost down. I'm certainly willing to lend support to such a project.
Agree about the one-piece shell being the critical bit Paul. Most of us will happily get hold of a chassis and add the detail that we want.
The important thing is that this and the 'set' idea help to overcome the barriers to entry.
Australians probably model their own systems to a greater extent than was the case in years past. There's still a strong fanbase for US outline, probably a stagnant (or slightly declining) market for British outline, and a more or less dying market for European modelling - it never recovered from massive price hikes after exchange rates fluctuations post the floating of the Australian dollar in the early 80s.
NZ is a pretty small market though, and you have to factor in that the RTR Australian market is more or less diesel oriented, and what has been made is mainly diesels that worked on both standard or broad gauge -given only about 5 Australian HO modellers actually model prototypical broad gauge, broad/standard can be treated as one market for these purposes.
This means that the bulk of the models that get made are bought by NSW or Victorian modellers, with a smaller contingent who buy SA models. Add to that Queenslanders or Western Australians who buy models of locos that put in an appearance on the parts of the standard gauge network that run into their capital cities, and you have a significantly bigger market than NZ, probably 4-5 times the size.
The market for steam is noticeably lesser, because far less steam made it across state borders- the standard gauge interstate network was created post-1962, and steam locos are not able to be bogie-exchanged! Although SA and Victoria had a broad gauge line between their capitals, steam locos never ran across the border to any extent.
For the narrow gauge states, the situation is more like NZ, except it's riven with disparities in scale, which I've gone into previously. These scale disparities mean that a laser etched process may be the only way that wagons or locos that worked on more than one network can ever be replicated, and so, what happens in NZ120 is to this extent, very interesting, to me anyway . . .
I hope this puts things re the Aussie situation in some perspective.
Another point to consider is NZ modellers unwillingness to pay "a very reasonable and fair price".
10 years ago and more, to buy a RTR model of any description, you had three basic choices.
1/ order direct from a professional modeller (big bucks!)
2/ reply to adverts in the Journal
3/ go to an model shop that stocked RTR models.
Generally if you visited a hobby shop and saw an RTR model that you wanted, you would buy it there and then, as you ran the risk of losing out to someone else if you didn't. Likewise with adverts in the Journal. There wasn't alot of RTR available for sale back in those days, and this was reflected in the price.
Now a days, with Trade Me for example, there is more choice, and judging by some of the recent sales, the consumer is to an extent dictating price (Good for the consumer but not for the manufacturer who is trying to develop sales).
Modellers are more discerning now, and price conscious.
If an RTR wagon appeared on the market, the average modeller would expect the price to be modest, to reflect the "mass production" of said item. If the price didnt meet there expectations, would they buy the wagon enmass?????
Ahem.... with the size of the market in NZ, there is NO SUCH THING as mass production; it would be a case of the person assembling the kits choosing to do fifty instead of ten, but the price would remain the same. New production methods is the only thing that will see any change in availability & cost.
I want to know what happened to the rp type 14 bogie which was suggested a year ago
Speaking to the boys who were looking at the bogie, they arent in any hurry as it was really just for their own use and wasnt being done for commercial release.
Jerome
Who are "the boys". Might be quite a bit of demand that would cover costs, if they were prepared to involve others.
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